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	<title>Comments on: Is Market Linked Certificates of Deposit Right for You?</title>
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		<title>By: MoneyNing</title>
		<link>http://moneyning.com/investing/is-market-linked-certificates-of-deposit-right-for-you/comment-page-1/#comment-24183</link>
		<dc:creator>MoneyNing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Feb 2010 18:00:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moneyning.com/?p=2042#comment-24183</guid>
		<description>Using CD interest to fund IRAs and then withdrawing it may work out mathematically, but I always advocate simplicity because unlike professionals who are always looking at the numbers, we &quot;humans&quot; don&#039;t and often screw things up. Unless we have some type of software that automatically calculates the precise moves needed on a daily basis according to interest rates, returns, tax rule changes etc, I don&#039;t recommend trying to mingle with CDs, IRAs all together with money you need for non-retirement purposes.

To put it simply, I would worry about retirement with retirement funds, and other means with tuition. the 529 plans that Anthony brought up is a good alternative, and one you should consider because of its tax benefits. However, 529 plans are for tuition only, and as much as you believe you will go to graduate school, many people end up not going back, especially after they&#039;ve gotten a taste of income from a job and the lifestyle that brings. (ie, some people find it hard to give up their income and eat ramens again after having the occasional Ruth Chris dinners), so 529 plans may or may not be worth it because the penalties of not going to graduate school would be big.

Speaking of bonds, due to the near certainly that rates are going to go up, I would buy bonds instead of bond funds. I know it requires much more research and maintenance, but bonds need to be held to maturity and therefore your principle are not susceptible to rate fluctuations. Bond funds on the other hand are destined to fall in prices in the coming years if rates rises. For the most part, the next 10 years for bond funds will most likely not be as good as the last 10 years, so tread lightly.

3.70% may not sound like a lot, but for the zero risk that you are assuming with this investment, the rate is actually awesome in my opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Using CD interest to fund IRAs and then withdrawing it may work out mathematically, but I always advocate simplicity because unlike professionals who are always looking at the numbers, we &#8220;humans&#8221; don&#8217;t and often screw things up. Unless we have some type of software that automatically calculates the precise moves needed on a daily basis according to interest rates, returns, tax rule changes etc, I don&#8217;t recommend trying to mingle with CDs, IRAs all together with money you need for non-retirement purposes.</p>
<p>To put it simply, I would worry about retirement with retirement funds, and other means with tuition. the 529 plans that Anthony brought up is a good alternative, and one you should consider because of its tax benefits. However, 529 plans are for tuition only, and as much as you believe you will go to graduate school, many people end up not going back, especially after they&#8217;ve gotten a taste of income from a job and the lifestyle that brings. (ie, some people find it hard to give up their income and eat ramens again after having the occasional Ruth Chris dinners), so 529 plans may or may not be worth it because the penalties of not going to graduate school would be big.</p>
<p>Speaking of bonds, due to the near certainly that rates are going to go up, I would buy bonds instead of bond funds. I know it requires much more research and maintenance, but bonds need to be held to maturity and therefore your principle are not susceptible to rate fluctuations. Bond funds on the other hand are destined to fall in prices in the coming years if rates rises. For the most part, the next 10 years for bond funds will most likely not be as good as the last 10 years, so tread lightly.</p>
<p>3.70% may not sound like a lot, but for the zero risk that you are assuming with this investment, the rate is actually awesome in my opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony</title>
		<link>http://moneyning.com/investing/is-market-linked-certificates-of-deposit-right-for-you/comment-page-1/#comment-24179</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Feb 2010 15:22:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moneyning.com/?p=2042#comment-24179</guid>
		<description>@Joseph: Given your 10-year time horizon, holding something like a 30/70 equity/bond allocation might make sense, if you can stomach it. As I mentioned before, I don&#039;t like paying for the privilege of mixing products if I can get the same result myself. I think a good bond index fund would be superior since your time horizon is long enough and because CD rates are in the toilet right now.  However, as rates can only go up, I would stick to something with a shorter duration (a la Vanguard Short-Term Bond Index) and stay away from Intermediate and longer funds.

Given that your goals are educational, perhaps you could look into a 529 plan? No tax-deductibility on the way in like an IRA, but the earnings coming out would be. Don&#039;t know about any income requirements, but at least you wouldn&#039;t have to worry about meeting the IRA withdrawal limitations and tracking the associated documentation carefully to avoid penalties.

Good luck!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Joseph: Given your 10-year time horizon, holding something like a 30/70 equity/bond allocation might make sense, if you can stomach it. As I mentioned before, I don&#8217;t like paying for the privilege of mixing products if I can get the same result myself. I think a good bond index fund would be superior since your time horizon is long enough and because CD rates are in the toilet right now.  However, as rates can only go up, I would stick to something with a shorter duration (a la Vanguard Short-Term Bond Index) and stay away from Intermediate and longer funds.</p>
<p>Given that your goals are educational, perhaps you could look into a 529 plan? No tax-deductibility on the way in like an IRA, but the earnings coming out would be. Don&#8217;t know about any income requirements, but at least you wouldn&#8217;t have to worry about meeting the IRA withdrawal limitations and tracking the associated documentation carefully to avoid penalties.</p>
<p>Good luck!</p>
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		<title>By: Joeseph</title>
		<link>http://moneyning.com/investing/is-market-linked-certificates-of-deposit-right-for-you/comment-page-1/#comment-24175</link>
		<dc:creator>Joeseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Feb 2010 10:15:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moneyning.com/?p=2042#comment-24175</guid>
		<description>Oh and the 10 yr CDs I have are currently yielding 3.63% Interest with 3.70% APY (Interest is compounded daily and credited monthly.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh and the 10 yr CDs I have are currently yielding 3.63% Interest with 3.70% APY (Interest is compounded daily and credited monthly.)</p>
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		<title>By: Joeseph</title>
		<link>http://moneyning.com/investing/is-market-linked-certificates-of-deposit-right-for-you/comment-page-1/#comment-24174</link>
		<dc:creator>Joeseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Feb 2010 10:10:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moneyning.com/?p=2042#comment-24174</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the feedback. Well here is the kicker, currently I am in my undergraduate and don&#039;t plan to go to graduate school until about 10 yrs from now (maybe a little less) AND I am a full time student at the moment with no traditional income means (ie. part time job or full time job). My only income source is my parents and/or my savings accounts including the CDs which just accumulate interest income.

And to top it off, I am paying out of my savings for my school tuition and related expenses. I was thinking of getting an IRA account and then depositing the interest income from the savings every year into the account and then later withdrawing it under the allowed condition that the funds are used for higher education expenses so that I get some added tax benefits.

I was hoping if that would work, that I can add the MLCDs under the IRA account with a years contribution at my tax bracket (near nothing due to this years really low interest levels on most savings accounts including CDs) which is $5,000 as the limit I believe for me tax/income status. And with the MLCDs under the IRA then maybe I can offset the taxes incurred there that would have been otherwise pretty high assuming the MLCDs perform well (which I think is what I think Mr. Jeff Shaffer was talking about earlier in this post)

Id love to hear your thoughts on this.

Note: I have not verified that an IRA will actually be within my reach right now as a full time unemployed student. I need to ask a tax expert about that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the feedback. Well here is the kicker, currently I am in my undergraduate and don&#8217;t plan to go to graduate school until about 10 yrs from now (maybe a little less) AND I am a full time student at the moment with no traditional income means (ie. part time job or full time job). My only income source is my parents and/or my savings accounts including the CDs which just accumulate interest income.</p>
<p>And to top it off, I am paying out of my savings for my school tuition and related expenses. I was thinking of getting an IRA account and then depositing the interest income from the savings every year into the account and then later withdrawing it under the allowed condition that the funds are used for higher education expenses so that I get some added tax benefits.</p>
<p>I was hoping if that would work, that I can add the MLCDs under the IRA account with a years contribution at my tax bracket (near nothing due to this years really low interest levels on most savings accounts including CDs) which is $5,000 as the limit I believe for me tax/income status. And with the MLCDs under the IRA then maybe I can offset the taxes incurred there that would have been otherwise pretty high assuming the MLCDs perform well (which I think is what I think Mr. Jeff Shaffer was talking about earlier in this post)</p>
<p>Id love to hear your thoughts on this.</p>
<p>Note: I have not verified that an IRA will actually be within my reach right now as a full time unemployed student. I need to ask a tax expert about that.</p>
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		<title>By: MoneyNing</title>
		<link>http://moneyning.com/investing/is-market-linked-certificates-of-deposit-right-for-you/comment-page-1/#comment-24162</link>
		<dc:creator>MoneyNing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:41:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moneyning.com/?p=2042#comment-24162</guid>
		<description>Normally, I would recommend a mix of stocks and bonds in a diversified portfolio since your time frame is 10 years out, but because you need the money for graduate school, which is very important to you, I would keep them in safer investments. In your case, a MLCD might not be a bad idea, assuming you don&#039;t need the potential gains that the CD interest could give you. The MLCD doesn&#039;t have the tax advantage of stocks and bonds, but CDs don&#039;t either so that part of it is the same.

Maybe what you can do is figure out how much money you&#039;ll be getting with a 10 year CD and then factor that into your calculation. Also, you might want to figure out whether you can earn money in this 10 year time frame. The reason why this is important is that your income can supplement the money you&#039;ve already saved up for graduate school, so if stocks/bonds take a dive (say, 9 and a half years from now), you don&#039;t need to sell them at the worst moment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Normally, I would recommend a mix of stocks and bonds in a diversified portfolio since your time frame is 10 years out, but because you need the money for graduate school, which is very important to you, I would keep them in safer investments. In your case, a MLCD might not be a bad idea, assuming you don&#8217;t need the potential gains that the CD interest could give you. The MLCD doesn&#8217;t have the tax advantage of stocks and bonds, but CDs don&#8217;t either so that part of it is the same.</p>
<p>Maybe what you can do is figure out how much money you&#8217;ll be getting with a 10 year CD and then factor that into your calculation. Also, you might want to figure out whether you can earn money in this 10 year time frame. The reason why this is important is that your income can supplement the money you&#8217;ve already saved up for graduate school, so if stocks/bonds take a dive (say, 9 and a half years from now), you don&#8217;t need to sell them at the worst moment.</p>
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		<title>By: Joeseph</title>
		<link>http://moneyning.com/investing/is-market-linked-certificates-of-deposit-right-for-you/comment-page-1/#comment-24127</link>
		<dc:creator>Joeseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:29:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moneyning.com/?p=2042#comment-24127</guid>
		<description>1 yr later and Wells Fargo is still offering this product and pushed it to me today.... I am struck between entering into a MLCD or just buying more standard CDs at some of the current higher yields for longer terms like 5yr or even 10yr at near 4%

I only need the money for graduate school which is about 10 yrs from now.

Any recommendations?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1 yr later and Wells Fargo is still offering this product and pushed it to me today&#8230;. I am struck between entering into a MLCD or just buying more standard CDs at some of the current higher yields for longer terms like 5yr or even 10yr at near 4%</p>
<p>I only need the money for graduate school which is about 10 yrs from now.</p>
<p>Any recommendations?</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://moneyning.com/investing/is-market-linked-certificates-of-deposit-right-for-you/comment-page-1/#comment-14191</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 03:48:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moneyning.com/?p=2042#comment-14191</guid>
		<description>It really comes down to the amount your investing (compared to you total assets)and your liquidity needs. From what you have described, the Wells Fargo MLCD product you invested in has no Barrier Return with Contingent Rebate which is a positive. Having no risk on the principal is also good, but I wonder how much of a bureaucratic hassle it would be to work with the FDIC to put in your claim if the S&amp;P were below that 800 upon maturity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It really comes down to the amount your investing (compared to you total assets)and your liquidity needs. From what you have described, the Wells Fargo MLCD product you invested in has no Barrier Return with Contingent Rebate which is a positive. Having no risk on the principal is also good, but I wonder how much of a bureaucratic hassle it would be to work with the FDIC to put in your claim if the S&amp;P were below that 800 upon maturity.</p>
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		<title>By: PE</title>
		<link>http://moneyning.com/investing/is-market-linked-certificates-of-deposit-right-for-you/comment-page-1/#comment-14052</link>
		<dc:creator>PE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 01:14:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moneyning.com/?p=2042#comment-14052</guid>
		<description>After reading this blog I felt that I should share my decision-making process when I decided to invest on a MLCD in January. The 3.5-year MLCD that I purchased with Wells Fargo gurantees at least 9% return until it matures as long as the S&amp;P 500 index after 3.5 years is higher than the initial value (approximately 800 pts in 1/31/09). If the S&amp;P 500 index is below 800 after 3.5 years I only get my principal back (it is FDIC insured). This is a 2.5% yearly return which is about the same return anyone could get with a regular CD that matures in 3.5 years (1 year in the low 2% and 5 years in the high 2%). Given the fact that I don&#039;t have the nerves to watch my short/medium term investments go up and down in the stock market but I also don&#039;t like the idea of leaving money on the table, this instrument seems to provide a unique alternative to get some upside (yes, cap between 50% and 60% from the initial S&amp;P 500 800 mark - I can&#039;t remember the exact number from the top of my head). Yes, the tax and dividend issues brought up aren&#039;t attractive but the alternative would be to invest in a regular CD with very similar return (~2.5%), tax (the difference is having the interest available to pay tax but the amount is not outrageous anyway), and dividend (there is no dividend in regular CDs) implications. Thus, if one can see this as an opportunity to gain up to 50%-60% in 3.5 years (12.3%-14.4% per year - all before taxes) without taking any risk of losing the principal and without doing any extra homework to buy stock options, I believe it is a good instrument. I have never been a fan of investing in stocks for short/medium term savings. If you want to invest in equities and you don&#039;t have the time, nerves, or expertise to take action on a daily basis, I think the best option is mutual funds with low admin costs targeting long term goals. That&#039;s at least what I do by having mutual funds with long term target goals. Finally, I think the market today is such that even if it goes much lower it will probably recover in 3.5 years. However, if you are concerned about losing your principal but still want to benefit if things get better very quickly, why not purchase some MLCDs? The way I see if the market gains more than 60% in 3.5 years: I will still be happy since my retirement account would have recovered a good portion of its current loss (no cap on it) and the economy will be getting better. If the market goes even lower, well, I can at least get my principal back and not regret putting more money in stocks. And yes, I will be very sad when I see my retirement account&#039;s balance. Have I convinced anyone that MLCDs can be a good investment?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After reading this blog I felt that I should share my decision-making process when I decided to invest on a MLCD in January. The 3.5-year MLCD that I purchased with Wells Fargo gurantees at least 9% return until it matures as long as the S&amp;P 500 index after 3.5 years is higher than the initial value (approximately 800 pts in 1/31/09). If the S&amp;P 500 index is below 800 after 3.5 years I only get my principal back (it is FDIC insured). This is a 2.5% yearly return which is about the same return anyone could get with a regular CD that matures in 3.5 years (1 year in the low 2% and 5 years in the high 2%). Given the fact that I don&#8217;t have the nerves to watch my short/medium term investments go up and down in the stock market but I also don&#8217;t like the idea of leaving money on the table, this instrument seems to provide a unique alternative to get some upside (yes, cap between 50% and 60% from the initial S&amp;P 500 800 mark &#8211; I can&#8217;t remember the exact number from the top of my head). Yes, the tax and dividend issues brought up aren&#8217;t attractive but the alternative would be to invest in a regular CD with very similar return (~2.5%), tax (the difference is having the interest available to pay tax but the amount is not outrageous anyway), and dividend (there is no dividend in regular CDs) implications. Thus, if one can see this as an opportunity to gain up to 50%-60% in 3.5 years (12.3%-14.4% per year &#8211; all before taxes) without taking any risk of losing the principal and without doing any extra homework to buy stock options, I believe it is a good instrument. I have never been a fan of investing in stocks for short/medium term savings. If you want to invest in equities and you don&#8217;t have the time, nerves, or expertise to take action on a daily basis, I think the best option is mutual funds with low admin costs targeting long term goals. That&#8217;s at least what I do by having mutual funds with long term target goals. Finally, I think the market today is such that even if it goes much lower it will probably recover in 3.5 years. However, if you are concerned about losing your principal but still want to benefit if things get better very quickly, why not purchase some MLCDs? The way I see if the market gains more than 60% in 3.5 years: I will still be happy since my retirement account would have recovered a good portion of its current loss (no cap on it) and the economy will be getting better. If the market goes even lower, well, I can at least get my principal back and not regret putting more money in stocks. And yes, I will be very sad when I see my retirement account&#8217;s balance. Have I convinced anyone that MLCDs can be a good investment?</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://moneyning.com/investing/is-market-linked-certificates-of-deposit-right-for-you/comment-page-1/#comment-13876</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Feb 2009 02:19:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moneyning.com/?p=2042#comment-13876</guid>
		<description>Thanks folks.  Today we went through this routine with the banker and because of your varied comments, we&#039;ve decided to pass on this.  Really appreciate your perspectives and opinions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks folks.  Today we went through this routine with the banker and because of your varied comments, we&#8217;ve decided to pass on this.  Really appreciate your perspectives and opinions.</p>
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		<title>By: Lisa Danie</title>
		<link>http://moneyning.com/investing/is-market-linked-certificates-of-deposit-right-for-you/comment-page-1/#comment-13867</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa Danie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:35:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moneyning.com/?p=2042#comment-13867</guid>
		<description>I just wanted to interject before any readers get the wrong idea. Not ALL MLCDs have a Barrier with Contingent Rebate feature, this is just one specific example of the way that a Market Linked CD might be structured in order to give the investor exposure to equity market upside while still in a fully principal protected form. These structures can also be leveraged (such as providing the investor with 114-125% of the return of the underlying market) and can be a great way for investors to gain access to markets that are not always easily gained from an individual&#039;s standpoint (such as some algorithmic indices, currencies, commodities). 

You cant get something for nothing, we all know this, so when you are investing in a product that guarantees your return of principal at maturity (NO downside risk), you may have to give up something comparable on the upside in return for that feature (risk/return tradeoff) --&gt; this is where the barrier feature comes in. It is NOT because the bank doesnt &quot;want to lose their shirts should the market rally&quot; Anthony. The banks who sell these MLCDs are actually not on the other side of the trade (i.e. they do not make money when you lose money), they use the interest from the investment in the CD to buy options that in turn give you the payout of the underlying index, and therefore it is not a you win i lose type of situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just wanted to interject before any readers get the wrong idea. Not ALL MLCDs have a Barrier with Contingent Rebate feature, this is just one specific example of the way that a Market Linked CD might be structured in order to give the investor exposure to equity market upside while still in a fully principal protected form. These structures can also be leveraged (such as providing the investor with 114-125% of the return of the underlying market) and can be a great way for investors to gain access to markets that are not always easily gained from an individual&#8217;s standpoint (such as some algorithmic indices, currencies, commodities). </p>
<p>You cant get something for nothing, we all know this, so when you are investing in a product that guarantees your return of principal at maturity (NO downside risk), you may have to give up something comparable on the upside in return for that feature (risk/return tradeoff) &#8211;&gt; this is where the barrier feature comes in. It is NOT because the bank doesnt &#8220;want to lose their shirts should the market rally&#8221; Anthony. The banks who sell these MLCDs are actually not on the other side of the trade (i.e. they do not make money when you lose money), they use the interest from the investment in the CD to buy options that in turn give you the payout of the underlying index, and therefore it is not a you win i lose type of situation.</p>
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