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	<title>Comments on: Being Logical and Never Buy a House</title>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://moneyning.com/housing/being-logical-and-never-buy-a-house/comment-page-1/#comment-71149</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2012 03:28:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Where the heck do you guys rent, my rent hasn&#039;t gone up in10 years. If landlords keep raising rent as you say people will leave and rent somewhere else or buy a home. Secondly, are you saying people who rent in big cities or anywhere by choice aren&#039;t happy unless they have a home? They just don&#039;t want the hassles or commitment of a 30 year boat anchor. They help people who own homes pay their mortgage and investments. Also you don&#039;t own anything the bank does until that last payment and you have paid $200,ooo in interest. You could make way more investing and paying cash for a house, if you desire when you retire. The biggest myth is the tax deduction. I get the same tax deduction by investing in pre tax dollars. If you pay 12,000 in interest a year, you don&#039;t get 12,000 of your taxes, that comes off your earnings which might lower your taxes 1000 or so dollars.. The standard deduction is almost as much as your interest deduction. I will make a deal with anyone. Give me the interest you pay to invest during the year and I will pay the difference in taxes to the IRS for you and be a few thousand dollars richer. If you want a home great!! But it isn&#039;t the best investment, ask hundreds of people in Vegas how they are doing with payments for a 400,000 home on a home that is now worth. 193,000 and tell me how losing $200,000 in interest and $200,ooo in equity is a great bargain!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where the heck do you guys rent, my rent hasn&#8217;t gone up in10 years. If landlords keep raising rent as you say people will leave and rent somewhere else or buy a home. Secondly, are you saying people who rent in big cities or anywhere by choice aren&#8217;t happy unless they have a home? They just don&#8217;t want the hassles or commitment of a 30 year boat anchor. They help people who own homes pay their mortgage and investments. Also you don&#8217;t own anything the bank does until that last payment and you have paid $200,ooo in interest. You could make way more investing and paying cash for a house, if you desire when you retire. The biggest myth is the tax deduction. I get the same tax deduction by investing in pre tax dollars. If you pay 12,000 in interest a year, you don&#8217;t get 12,000 of your taxes, that comes off your earnings which might lower your taxes 1000 or so dollars.. The standard deduction is almost as much as your interest deduction. I will make a deal with anyone. Give me the interest you pay to invest during the year and I will pay the difference in taxes to the IRS for you and be a few thousand dollars richer. If you want a home great!! But it isn&#8217;t the best investment, ask hundreds of people in Vegas how they are doing with payments for a 400,000 home on a home that is now worth. 193,000 and tell me how losing $200,000 in interest and $200,ooo in equity is a great bargain!!!</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://moneyning.com/housing/being-logical-and-never-buy-a-house/comment-page-1/#comment-71127</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2012 19:40:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moneyning.com/housing/being-logical-and-never-buy-a-house/#comment-71127</guid>
		<description>anything I have ever done as far as remodeling  is becasuse i wanted to. I dont want to rent a house where I have to &quot;live&quot; with what I got. It makes me happy to see the things I have worked on or completed. I dont want to come to a place where I look at stuff and say, &quot;oh well at least it&#039;s not mine&quot;. I have pride in my home and I want to have a better quality of life. thats an intangable not mentioned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>anything I have ever done as far as remodeling  is becasuse i wanted to. I dont want to rent a house where I have to &#8220;live&#8221; with what I got. It makes me happy to see the things I have worked on or completed. I dont want to come to a place where I look at stuff and say, &#8220;oh well at least it&#8217;s not mine&#8221;. I have pride in my home and I want to have a better quality of life. thats an intangable not mentioned.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://moneyning.com/housing/being-logical-and-never-buy-a-house/comment-page-1/#comment-71126</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2012 19:37:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moneyning.com/housing/being-logical-and-never-buy-a-house/#comment-71126</guid>
		<description>you found a sweet deal but I guarantee you that you are a very small percentage if even a percantage of what is going on in the rental world. In California  your story is so rarely the case. Good for you I wish  everybody could have the blessing you do but you have to agree you hear about slumlords 1000 times more than you hear about stories like yours.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you found a sweet deal but I guarantee you that you are a very small percentage if even a percantage of what is going on in the rental world. In California  your story is so rarely the case. Good for you I wish  everybody could have the blessing you do but you have to agree you hear about slumlords 1000 times more than you hear about stories like yours.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://moneyning.com/housing/being-logical-and-never-buy-a-house/comment-page-1/#comment-71124</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2012 19:32:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moneyning.com/housing/being-logical-and-never-buy-a-house/#comment-71124</guid>
		<description>I see you really want to rent but even after all the negatives you place on owning and all the positves you write about renting in the end you still say you want to buy. Something to be said for that</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see you really want to rent but even after all the negatives you place on owning and all the positves you write about renting in the end you still say you want to buy. Something to be said for that</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://moneyning.com/housing/being-logical-and-never-buy-a-house/comment-page-1/#comment-71123</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2012 19:28:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moneyning.com/housing/being-logical-and-never-buy-a-house/#comment-71123</guid>
		<description>what is not mentioned in this article or anyones comments that I&#039;ve seen is the 10% a landlord can raise the rent on you every year.   That&#039;s right folks 10% per year if the landlord  wants. if you started at $2000.00 the next you could be at $2200.00 the following year at$2420.00 and the next  year at $2662.00 PER MONTH!!!  it&#039;s a vicious cycle and totaly legal however not  added to any cost benefit equation that I have seen here let alone even mentioned. 

What about if you want to upgrade anything in the house? You mean I cant and just have to live with whats there unless I want to lose all the money I put into making my living space nicer? YUP. You dont own the house so any money you put into upgrading and making your quality of life better is gone the moment you move out. That&#039;s not mentioned either. I would much rather own and have the possiblity be wide open for anything that I want to make my quality of life better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>what is not mentioned in this article or anyones comments that I&#8217;ve seen is the 10% a landlord can raise the rent on you every year.   That&#8217;s right folks 10% per year if the landlord  wants. if you started at $2000.00 the next you could be at $2200.00 the following year at$2420.00 and the next  year at $2662.00 PER MONTH!!!  it&#8217;s a vicious cycle and totaly legal however not  added to any cost benefit equation that I have seen here let alone even mentioned. </p>
<p>What about if you want to upgrade anything in the house? You mean I cant and just have to live with whats there unless I want to lose all the money I put into making my living space nicer? YUP. You dont own the house so any money you put into upgrading and making your quality of life better is gone the moment you move out. That&#8217;s not mentioned either. I would much rather own and have the possiblity be wide open for anything that I want to make my quality of life better.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://moneyning.com/housing/being-logical-and-never-buy-a-house/comment-page-1/#comment-70693</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jan 2012 20:13:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moneyning.com/housing/being-logical-and-never-buy-a-house/#comment-70693</guid>
		<description>Buying a house is not the best investment. If you want a place to pay off and live it is and a average or stable way to save some money. I have rented at the same place for 10 years and rent has never gone up. I have invested the difference of closing costs, insurance, house maintenance which has averaged about $3,ooo ayear for new furnace, air conditioner, painting and plumbing, refrigerator etc., taxes and hoa fees into a money market fund. That money invested with other savings invested over 30 years  with compounded interest and a average of 10 percent a year will be worth 3 million or more. How much will your $200,000 home be worth in future dollars? No where close. I can then buy me with cash a nice home anywhere I want and save an additional $63000 to $100,ooo in interest. Unless you are in the real estate market or flipping homes it is not a great investment but it is nice to live in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Buying a house is not the best investment. If you want a place to pay off and live it is and a average or stable way to save some money. I have rented at the same place for 10 years and rent has never gone up. I have invested the difference of closing costs, insurance, house maintenance which has averaged about $3,ooo ayear for new furnace, air conditioner, painting and plumbing, refrigerator etc., taxes and hoa fees into a money market fund. That money invested with other savings invested over 30 years  with compounded interest and a average of 10 percent a year will be worth 3 million or more. How much will your $200,000 home be worth in future dollars? No where close. I can then buy me with cash a nice home anywhere I want and save an additional $63000 to $100,ooo in interest. Unless you are in the real estate market or flipping homes it is not a great investment but it is nice to live in.</p>
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		<title>By: Susan</title>
		<link>http://moneyning.com/housing/being-logical-and-never-buy-a-house/comment-page-1/#comment-57010</link>
		<dc:creator>Susan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Nov 2011 21:42:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moneyning.com/housing/being-logical-and-never-buy-a-house/#comment-57010</guid>
		<description>Hello-
We just sold our house and I feel SO free! Our hot water heater flooded just before we left, and then half the water heaters in the condo building went down after that.  Meanwhile, in our lovely new rental downtown, I noticed a couple of minor repairs that needed being done, called up the landlord, and it was dealt with.
We plan to stay here for about four years while our kid finishes high-school, and then go where-ever our careers or fancy takes us.
I thought I would love home ownership, but in the ten years we tried it, it made me feel trapped. We resisted the big loans being offered us and tried to buy within our means. But we always seems strapped for cash, putting all our spare money and time into our property.  
We live in a major city where the rent vs buy ratios are way out of whack. We make about 130% of median income in our city, which means we can&#039;t afford a single family any where you&#039;d actually want to live. So we went the condo route.
Our first condo turned out to be near Section 8 property (in the fancy neighborhood with good schools we&#039;d scrimped and saved for). Constant parties until 4 in the morning, beer bottles thrown everywhere. The first summer we learned the Miranda rights by heart, after hearing cops read them so many nights to sweaty meth addicts hiding in our bushes. Next we tried a condo in an self-managed artist community - lovely people to meet at a party, not so fun to make financial decisions with. &quot;Insurance? Why would that be necessary?&quot;
When you buy a place you are TRAPPED with those neighbors for 30 years. Love &#039;em or hate &#039;em, you can&#039;t get away from them. Ever.

And when we did the math on our last place place, we realized finally that our 10% down on a $350K condo meant we&#039;d pay nearly $900,000 total in interest, principal, and taxes in 30 years. Not to mention home repairs. 
And if we lost our jobs, what then? Not only might we lose a place to live, like you do with renting, but we also might lose OUR ENTIRE INVESTMENT during a foreclosure. If you are renting and can&#039;t afford it, you can pick up and move somewhere cheaper. Heck, you could move into a campground if you have to. And if you have money in the bank, no one can touch it if you owe it to no-one.
But once you are chained to a house, you have to sell it or lose out big time - on your investment, your credit, and your good name.
No thanks. 
We are saving $1000 a month by renting. In a nice place, downtown, where OWNING the same property would cost us between $800k and $1.5 million.
If someday we can raise the cash to buy a single family outright ( a decent one starts about $400K here) then perhaps we&#039;ll revisit.
But for now we are reveling in the freedom of being a renter. The world is large, and we love thinking we can go anywhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello-<br />
We just sold our house and I feel SO free! Our hot water heater flooded just before we left, and then half the water heaters in the condo building went down after that.  Meanwhile, in our lovely new rental downtown, I noticed a couple of minor repairs that needed being done, called up the landlord, and it was dealt with.<br />
We plan to stay here for about four years while our kid finishes high-school, and then go where-ever our careers or fancy takes us.<br />
I thought I would love home ownership, but in the ten years we tried it, it made me feel trapped. We resisted the big loans being offered us and tried to buy within our means. But we always seems strapped for cash, putting all our spare money and time into our property.<br />
We live in a major city where the rent vs buy ratios are way out of whack. We make about 130% of median income in our city, which means we can&#8217;t afford a single family any where you&#8217;d actually want to live. So we went the condo route.<br />
Our first condo turned out to be near Section 8 property (in the fancy neighborhood with good schools we&#8217;d scrimped and saved for). Constant parties until 4 in the morning, beer bottles thrown everywhere. The first summer we learned the Miranda rights by heart, after hearing cops read them so many nights to sweaty meth addicts hiding in our bushes. Next we tried a condo in an self-managed artist community &#8211; lovely people to meet at a party, not so fun to make financial decisions with. &#8220;Insurance? Why would that be necessary?&#8221;<br />
When you buy a place you are TRAPPED with those neighbors for 30 years. Love &#8216;em or hate &#8216;em, you can&#8217;t get away from them. Ever.</p>
<p>And when we did the math on our last place place, we realized finally that our 10% down on a $350K condo meant we&#8217;d pay nearly $900,000 total in interest, principal, and taxes in 30 years. Not to mention home repairs.<br />
And if we lost our jobs, what then? Not only might we lose a place to live, like you do with renting, but we also might lose OUR ENTIRE INVESTMENT during a foreclosure. If you are renting and can&#8217;t afford it, you can pick up and move somewhere cheaper. Heck, you could move into a campground if you have to. And if you have money in the bank, no one can touch it if you owe it to no-one.<br />
But once you are chained to a house, you have to sell it or lose out big time &#8211; on your investment, your credit, and your good name.<br />
No thanks.<br />
We are saving $1000 a month by renting. In a nice place, downtown, where OWNING the same property would cost us between $800k and $1.5 million.<br />
If someday we can raise the cash to buy a single family outright ( a decent one starts about $400K here) then perhaps we&#8217;ll revisit.<br />
But for now we are reveling in the freedom of being a renter. The world is large, and we love thinking we can go anywhere.</p>
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		<title>By: Something to Think About</title>
		<link>http://moneyning.com/housing/being-logical-and-never-buy-a-house/comment-page-1/#comment-44906</link>
		<dc:creator>Something to Think About</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jun 2011 21:59:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moneyning.com/housing/being-logical-and-never-buy-a-house/#comment-44906</guid>
		<description>Kinda called out here, but what I think needs re-emphasis is that you really have to look at how long you expect to own the home.  I&#039;ve seen references that suggest that the average period of ownership for homes is between five and seven years.   Some here suggested 5 years as the point at which home ownership makes sense.  I think that is woefully underestimated.  Here is why...

Say you just retired, and you have the same time horizon to consider (5 - 7 years).  How would you treat the portion of funds you expect to use over that same time frame?  My bet is that it would be rather conservative...a mix of cash, high interest savings accounts, CDs, Treasuries, Bonds, etc.  That is, mostly liquid assets.  This follows sound advice one can find from several sources.

However, given many (most?) of us (knowingly or not) face the same time horizon (5-7 years) for home ownership, we turn that thinking on its head and roll the dice with housing.  Can we really afford to tie up our funds into an asset that is:  1) illiquid;  2) risky;  and 3) has a high transaction cost associated with it?

Illiquid.  If your 5-7 years comes up in an average or buyers market, expect to wait days or months for a sale, unless you aggressively price (in which case, your agent will love you - then, be sure to ask them to take a 4% commission).  Hopefully, you don&#039;t also have to take a hit.  Hopefully, you don&#039;t need the cash immediately.

Risky.  We&#039;ve all been fooled into thinking housing is virtually risk-less.  I think we all learned the real truth over the past couple years on this.   With a 5-7 year time horizon, there is not enough time to ride a full cycle to put you on the right side again.  I doubt anyone truly has the skill to time the market, and if they did, think about it...where do they go for housing?  Know anyone that is selling high, renting, then buying when the market is low...thought not.

Transaction Cost.   What kills you are transaction costs (6% &quot;non-standard&quot; commission, and up to 1% closing costs, not counting any possible taxes, costs associated with moving, and with locating and financing your next home).  Remember, this is a leveraged asset, so divide that cost by your equity to find the real %transaction cost.  With 20% down and with just 7%, in your first year that would be about a whopping 35% transaction cost!  It improves with time, as you build equity, but not much, unless you are in a 2004 to 2006 bubble cycle.  If this was your 401K/IRA, you&#039;d puke at that horrific transaction cost.

Sure, the tax benefits mitigate some of this, but, as others pointed out, you need to factor in the maintenance, HOA fees, Property Taxes, etc. for the big picture.

I think folks should think long and hard before automatically assuming that buying a house is the right thing to do, like our parents and generations past did.  It may have worked for them, but it is a different world.  With job security on the decline, mobility has now become important, and it seems to me that you need to be nearly as conservative with your commitment to housing as you would be on investments you&#039;d be living off of for a five to seven year period, since you are likely to need those funds for your next move.

Something to think about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kinda called out here, but what I think needs re-emphasis is that you really have to look at how long you expect to own the home.  I&#8217;ve seen references that suggest that the average period of ownership for homes is between five and seven years.   Some here suggested 5 years as the point at which home ownership makes sense.  I think that is woefully underestimated.  Here is why&#8230;</p>
<p>Say you just retired, and you have the same time horizon to consider (5 &#8211; 7 years).  How would you treat the portion of funds you expect to use over that same time frame?  My bet is that it would be rather conservative&#8230;a mix of cash, high interest savings accounts, CDs, Treasuries, Bonds, etc.  That is, mostly liquid assets.  This follows sound advice one can find from several sources.</p>
<p>However, given many (most?) of us (knowingly or not) face the same time horizon (5-7 years) for home ownership, we turn that thinking on its head and roll the dice with housing.  Can we really afford to tie up our funds into an asset that is:  1) illiquid;  2) risky;  and 3) has a high transaction cost associated with it?</p>
<p>Illiquid.  If your 5-7 years comes up in an average or buyers market, expect to wait days or months for a sale, unless you aggressively price (in which case, your agent will love you &#8211; then, be sure to ask them to take a 4% commission).  Hopefully, you don&#8217;t also have to take a hit.  Hopefully, you don&#8217;t need the cash immediately.</p>
<p>Risky.  We&#8217;ve all been fooled into thinking housing is virtually risk-less.  I think we all learned the real truth over the past couple years on this.   With a 5-7 year time horizon, there is not enough time to ride a full cycle to put you on the right side again.  I doubt anyone truly has the skill to time the market, and if they did, think about it&#8230;where do they go for housing?  Know anyone that is selling high, renting, then buying when the market is low&#8230;thought not.</p>
<p>Transaction Cost.   What kills you are transaction costs (6% &#8220;non-standard&#8221; commission, and up to 1% closing costs, not counting any possible taxes, costs associated with moving, and with locating and financing your next home).  Remember, this is a leveraged asset, so divide that cost by your equity to find the real %transaction cost.  With 20% down and with just 7%, in your first year that would be about a whopping 35% transaction cost!  It improves with time, as you build equity, but not much, unless you are in a 2004 to 2006 bubble cycle.  If this was your 401K/IRA, you&#8217;d puke at that horrific transaction cost.</p>
<p>Sure, the tax benefits mitigate some of this, but, as others pointed out, you need to factor in the maintenance, HOA fees, Property Taxes, etc. for the big picture.</p>
<p>I think folks should think long and hard before automatically assuming that buying a house is the right thing to do, like our parents and generations past did.  It may have worked for them, but it is a different world.  With job security on the decline, mobility has now become important, and it seems to me that you need to be nearly as conservative with your commitment to housing as you would be on investments you&#8217;d be living off of for a five to seven year period, since you are likely to need those funds for your next move.</p>
<p>Something to think about.</p>
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		<title>By: Angelo</title>
		<link>http://moneyning.com/housing/being-logical-and-never-buy-a-house/comment-page-1/#comment-30699</link>
		<dc:creator>Angelo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Sep 2010 21:01:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moneyning.com/housing/being-logical-and-never-buy-a-house/#comment-30699</guid>
		<description>Still haven&#039;t bought a house yet myself.  I went down that road in 2007, and crunched all the numbers myself, and found it to be a &quot;bad deal.&quot;  I also came up with a rule for myself:  if I can&#039;t buy it within 15 years, I need to save more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Still haven&#8217;t bought a house yet myself.  I went down that road in 2007, and crunched all the numbers myself, and found it to be a &#8220;bad deal.&#8221;  I also came up with a rule for myself:  if I can&#8217;t buy it within 15 years, I need to save more.</p>
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		<title>By: A Good Example</title>
		<link>http://moneyning.com/housing/being-logical-and-never-buy-a-house/comment-page-1/#comment-25808</link>
		<dc:creator>A Good Example</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Apr 2010 15:30:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moneyning.com/housing/being-logical-and-never-buy-a-house/#comment-25808</guid>
		<description>UPDATE...

My wife and I still live in our Luxury Rental at the Beach paying the same $750.00 per month and LOVING it more than ever.  I drive around now and notice all the foreclosure signs everywhere on the mini mc-mansions that I would shake my head wondering how anyone could afford a $1,000,000 house. Now you see the reality of all that No Money Down nonsense. 

We just renewed our lease for another year and Once Again, our rent has NEVER INCREASED even now on our FIFTH YEAR. Sure, the current economy has something to do with our rent not going up a single penny in 5 years. Some of these units here are renting for lower than the $750 we pay but I don&#039;t want to move because I have my own furniture and electronics and most of the other rentals are all furnished. I love unfurnished apartments because it fells more like your space when you have your own furniture suited to your taste. 

The Key to renting is to rent a Very High End unit that is managed by a big corporation with deep pockets. The nicer the community the better when it comes to renting. Of course you don&#039;t want to pay too much, don&#039;t rent a bigger place than you need but the key is go upscale because they will really take care of the tenants. 

I thought I would update, We recently had the Washer+Dryer in our unit go out. Did I have to buy a new one? NO, I simply make a call and we have an Brand New $1000 Washer+Dryer delivered and Installed FREE OF CHARGE. 

I love renting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>UPDATE&#8230;</p>
<p>My wife and I still live in our Luxury Rental at the Beach paying the same $750.00 per month and LOVING it more than ever.  I drive around now and notice all the foreclosure signs everywhere on the mini mc-mansions that I would shake my head wondering how anyone could afford a $1,000,000 house. Now you see the reality of all that No Money Down nonsense. </p>
<p>We just renewed our lease for another year and Once Again, our rent has NEVER INCREASED even now on our FIFTH YEAR. Sure, the current economy has something to do with our rent not going up a single penny in 5 years. Some of these units here are renting for lower than the $750 we pay but I don&#8217;t want to move because I have my own furniture and electronics and most of the other rentals are all furnished. I love unfurnished apartments because it fells more like your space when you have your own furniture suited to your taste. </p>
<p>The Key to renting is to rent a Very High End unit that is managed by a big corporation with deep pockets. The nicer the community the better when it comes to renting. Of course you don&#8217;t want to pay too much, don&#8217;t rent a bigger place than you need but the key is go upscale because they will really take care of the tenants. </p>
<p>I thought I would update, We recently had the Washer+Dryer in our unit go out. Did I have to buy a new one? NO, I simply make a call and we have an Brand New $1000 Washer+Dryer delivered and Installed FREE OF CHARGE. </p>
<p>I love renting.</p>
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